Town Meeting - 10/15/93 A large hall, framed with modern oak wood and skylights. Numerous couches and chairs are scattered throughout the room. Your moderator, Deejay, sits patiently to begin the town discussion. Contents: Guest2 Zero Traveler Los Scoop Deathlok Sense8 Lorraine Seamus Deejay RiggeR Will_Riker lord_jagged Sear NetRunner HorseRider Dagger CyonHaus Gareth Defender Jabberwocky Faceless Shaman Cabato Keebler Notifier Lothar Frnkzk Zephyr Dancing Bee Girl Help Facility Obvious exits: ewbie Tour ut Shh. Welcome to the town meeting. Please type 'TMhelp' to learn about the meeting's commands. Shh. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Town Meeting Help ----------------------------------------------------------------- Tsuggest | Suggest Town Meeting topic of discussion. Raise Hand | Notifies moderator to let you speak. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Upcoming Topics of Discussion: Democracy on MicroMuse @announcing Citizen's Front MicroMuse Health Plan ----------------------------------------------------------------- If you have an opinion on the @announcing issue, type 'raise hand'. Deejay says "Malpissant?" Malpissant clears his throat and stands awkwardly..."well..seems to me that this here announce thing...well...it's...it's wrong!" and he slumps into his chair. Frnkzk says "How is it wrong?" NetRunner says "Malp, it's the restrictions that are getting bad..." Cabato says "Just what are the current regulations?" Wonko stands and states his opinion: "I think @announces should be freely allowed, but abusers of this *privledge* would be punished" HorseRider says "WEll, It seemsa to me that @gannounce is no different than +com gossip = :announces "MSG" except that it costs 1000 credits instead of one...s" Shaman says "There isn't a problem, besides the fact that ppl want it to be illegal" Dagger says "In my opinion, it SHOULD be restricted, but not so much.. either limit the number of times it can be done, OR put a cost on it.. not both.." Shaman says "@gann is legal. That's all there is to it" HorseRider says "It should NOT be illeagel, and I think that we should lower the cost to 500,750" Dagger says "Well.. perhaps limit to 1 announce a week or month, but keep credits out of it.." lord_jagged says "I believe all restrictions should be abolished as per announcing" NetRunner says "I think @gann should be free, and regular @ann upped to 5000. I also thing @gann should be virtually identical to @ann." Shaman agrees Wonko says "what is @gann...I can't find help for it..." Shaman says "But, why would ppl want to announce? Just because they have pow_announce?" Edge says "@ann was originally coded as an 'official' command... without restrictions, like on Time, it turns into another +com +public.. I hate to go NO_WALLS, because I don't want to miss anything important.. but if I don't, I get spammed by 'Hi, MusePe rson, how are you today' crap." NetRunner says "then include a no_gossip flag to block @gann, and keep no_walls for regular @ann's..." Zero says "How many credits does it cost NOW to @ann?" Frnkzk says "1000" Gareth says "I think we should abolish @ann, and have either @gann or +ch +gossip." Edge says "@ann's are turning into a +channel that noone can block out without risking missing something important." NetRunner says "+ch +gossip is worthless." NetRunner says "might as well just +ch +public." Malpissant says "yes...I hate going no_walls because sometime the announces are useful and fun." Frnkzk says "An @ann clone that can be blocked like Net says." Deejay says "Part of the issue is that people don't think it's as fun when it's on a channel." Dixie_Flatline says "We need to have SOME regulations so it doesn't turn out like time-muse, but fineing people for welcoming new musers and taking away their pow_ann is stupid!" CyonHaus says "I think the restrictions as they are are fine. However, I don't like all the friv. @anouncing. I think the cost should be upped ever more to discourage it" Malpissant says "The root of the problem is that money means nothing here." NetRunner says "well, @gann would be unrestricted, like timemuse..." Edge says "Page works fine for welcoming new users." NetRunner says "@broadcast would be an official-only command..." Edge says "@broadcast is fine.. except every now and then someone actually DOES have something worth announcing, not necessarily an official." NetRunner says "and @ann would be for important stuff only, like town meetings, wristcom stuff, and other community events being announced. any sillyness on the regular @ann would be punishable with the restriction of your abwhile'." Frnkzk says "Yeah, it serves a different function." Will_Riker says "Now you need pow_ann to @ann at all." Frnkzk says "What it used to serve is served by pow_broadcast." NetRunner says "3 types of @ann." Dagger says "Class 1: you cannot turn it off, official broadcasts.." Cabato says "I like that idea, Dagger." Dagger says "Class 2: Can be turned on and off.. kindof like @gann, but not relaly as loose..." Dagger says "And class 3: default of off, totaly @gann.. free and all.." NetRunner says "right...sillyness will be punished on class Ds will be pusays "yeah, and that is worthless" Dixie_Flatline says "The prob with having penalties, is how would one determine what's a junk @ann or not? Parties? Welcome-2Musez? New people's houses? Questions? etc?" NetRunner says "@ann would be for political assemblies, requests for help with coding, or requests for help with msue projects..." Zero says "What is the point of @ann, anyways. I mean, we could do with ouut it!" HorseRider says "@gann: removed sompletely" HorseRider says "@ann lowered back to 250" Cabato says "I don't think that removing the credit system will make anything easier." Cabato says "I like Horse Rider's idea." Wonko agrees with HorseRider, @ann should cost a day's wages Deejay says "Ok, good. That would be one solution. What would be another?" Will_Riker says "I mean, if you are going to remove someone's pow_ann for things that aren't 'worthwhile' you need a clear definition of 'worthwhile'." Frnkzk says "Yeah, it serves a different function." Will_Riker says "Now you need pow_ann to @ann at all." Frnkzk says "What it used to serve is served by pow_broadcast." NetRunner says "3 types of @ann." Dagger says "Class 1: you cannot turn it off, official broadcasts.." Cabato says "I like that idea, Dagger." Dagger says "Class 2: Can be turned on and off.. kindof like @gann, but not relaly as loose..." Dagger says "And class 3: default of off, totaly @gann.. free and all.." NetRunner says "right...sillyness will be punished on class 2's...:)" Dagger says "maybe 5000 for class 1, 500 for class 2, and free for class 3" Seamus says "Threee classes sound good to me." Dagger says "Sillyness.. no.. but EXTREME sillyness..." NetRunner says "and class 3 will be a free chat-type @ann" Deejay says "Good, we're finding solutions." Deejay says "We do not have time to thoroughly touch on each subject tonight, but we will in future meetings. I'm glad we found some answers to this issue, but now let's move on to another." The next issue is Democracy. Deejay says "Should MicroMuse be a true democracy?" Deejay says "If you have an opinion on the democracy issue, type 'raise hand'." Dagger says "Absolutely..directors could be chosedn, but guides should be elected..." Seamus says "Can it ever be a true democracy?" Deejay says "Good question." Wonko says "I think there should be a law making body elected by the citizens, composing of 20-30 people" Seamus says "A republic." Shaman says "I've been working hard on this issue" Dagger says "Yes... good idea, that's what I mean.. a model of Congress.." Shaman says "And as some may know, about, this Citizen's Front" NetRunner says "I think Guides and Officials COULD be elected offices...but directors and admins will never be elected..." Frnkzk says "A true blue democracy can't be elected. Power abuse is just too appealing to some folks." Jabberwocky says "new users should be restriceted, I mean I've been on here a real short time, and I don't know enough to vote. Kind of like 18 and older right" Deejay says "Guides usually become officials, and so on, so it is important to start with electing guides." Shaman says "The way I see it is 1900 citizens equals more than 1 director that sits around on inner" NetRunner nods. RiggeR says "what exactly would the goverment regulate?" Dagger says "And perhaps the4 POWER of guides and officials and so on could be elected.. decisions.." Sear says "I think that sounds like a pretty good idea.... it is a bit under-staffed" Cabato says "What sort of a process are we going to go through to get this? I mean, how many offices are we talking about? how are we going to restrict by experience etc.?" Gareth says "I like the idea of electing--then the people who are on the most and are the friendliest will be actually there to help us." Sear says "well, each person should have to say *why* people should vote for them...and use experience and all as reasons" Deejay says "Good point, gareth." Dagger says "the current officials are all seemingly elitists who won't talk to us.." Will_Riker says "I think that guides should definately be elected...who better to tell who works best with people than the people themselves?" Dagger says "But that could be left to the politicians.." Shaman says "A town meeting is a good idea, BUT" Shaman says "We can't have one of these every day" Shaman says "That's why, I propose that we should have a Citizen's Front" Shaman says "A group of citizens to represent the citizens in general" [name removed] says "I know.. but like shkoo and moulton and some others.. you're lucky if they return a page about something TOTALY legitimate.." Shaman says "These people would get the ideas of the citizens and represent them to inner" HorseRider says "citizens, guides come up with ideas, etc" Dagger says "Currently, how does one become a guide?" Deejay says "The inner council (directors, admins) decides who should become a guide and reviews applications currently." Dagger says "What a bum trip.. we don't wnat to be represented by them.. we want to represent ourselves.." Deejay says "But the inner council does not usually receive input from the citizens." Cabato says "Doesn't the 'Inner Council' smack of elitism in its name?" Will_Riker says "In my opinion...there's really no way for the inner council to know how well candidates get along with newbies and other people." [name removed] says "shkoo engages in favoritism, plain and simple. he admits it himself." Dagger says "Yes.. Inner is a big joke... a bunch of people getting together to see how they can abuse power on us, and getting a big ego trip by calling themselves directors or whatever(sorry, deejay, net.. there AQRE exceptions..:))" Los says "Inner actually does a lot less than most ppl think, folks" Deejay says "love the idea, horserider. cocoa once suggested an 'adopt a newbie' program." Dagger says "Yes, that would be great.. I know I'd do it.." Dagger says "And to further, officials and guideas and directors should NOT be allowed to go dark.. what the hell are they there for?!" NetRunner says "officials are more like trouble-shooters for more experienced people, as well as partially responsable for a greater administration of the entire muse..." Lothar says "Uh, I thikn that if people are whining about democracy on here, they spend a little TOO much time on here..." Dagger says "What 'own work'? Becoming an official or dir or whatever is a commitment to the people of CCII.." CyonHaus says "perhaps with a yearly term, to fight burnout" Dagger says "If they dont' want to help us any more, they sshould give up their title.." Cabato says "This still is about democracy. We're addressing the issues about the current government that are unpleasant so (we) can get it "together"" CyonHaus says "this representative could be given official or directorial powers. . ." CyonHaus says "this person would have to campaign to prove her or his or its worth to the community" CyonHaus says "if we elect someone fresh this way every year, they will have to politic themselves to stay in office. This way we will have a representative who is always responsive to our needes" Defender says "Is Cyberion City simply an experiment, or is it more?" Deejay says "hmm." NetRunner yells at Guides, Officials, Administrators and directors that either hide or idle. CyonHaus says "ccii could be an experiment in democracy. part of what a democracy is about is adaquate representation for the people who live in that community" Faceless says "I think it would be a good idea if we elected a group of citizens to handle judician decisions and act basically as an inner council to advice the inner council... it would be easier to implement than some kind of 'elect all the higher ups' system." RiggeR says "it seems that the ques of government is one of power ...:>" Deejay completely agrees...faceless.. Seamus says "Thing is - the majority of the important people here are greedy." CyonHaus says "I think Faceless's idea is a sound one. We need more representation." NetRunner thinks Guides should be elected, pure and simple. Scoop says "this is an educational muse, right?" Scoop says "setting up our own representative form of govt is a tremendous education..the directors should encourage that..." Shaman says "A group of citizens to represent citizens to inner" Dagger says "Number One: Zephyr has TOLD me that the inner council takes no advice from us at all, and the polling is only" Shaman says "These citizen would be a Front of people getting ideas from good old DEMOCRACY, yes that's right" Deejay sends results of polling, although the results are not always considered. Los says "What I see are a combination of productive comments about democracy and unproductive inner bashing... What's it going to be?" Dagger says "NUmber Two: if new officials are elected every year, it'll take too long to teach them their duties to do any good in office.. longer terms are neccesary..." CyonHaus says "that's why we need some teeth. Give our elected rep some power. Greed can be checked in a democracy. If our rep gets out of line we can vote them out of office" NetRunner hasn't even been on micromuse for a year, and he's been an official for a month or two now... Shaman says "And in order to publicize those, we need the Front" Dagger says "We need, at citizens, to SHOW THEM that power is somethign they can't have all of... ptotests of some sort(perhaps, not logging on to show the infuleunce of people, and the non-fun of an empty muse)" Keebler says "I agreee with scoop it would be a wounderfull education to set up and run a repersentitive gorvernment." lord_jagged says "the issue is democracy, election is the only method possible" Dagger says "and not figureheads, not jsut reps with no power to 'make us happy'.. with REAL power.." Dagger says "Electoral Colleges by Zones..." Shaman says "A democratical vote of citizens" HorseRider says "MicroMUSE is a big jam with this kind of an inner town" Scoop says "everyone can run, with a primary election to narrow it down..." Deejay says "What have we decided?" Seamus says "Electoral Colleges by Zones won't work - CCII is about five-thousand times bigger than Venus." NetRunner says "with say, 50 guides, we'd have at least 90% chance of having some corrupt power abusers..." Seamus says "Maybe by residential areas." Deejay says "We have basically decided guides must be elected, and we need to incorporate citizens into the decision-making process of MicroMuse. Before we go further, does anyone else have any other solutions?" NetRunner says "slight change might get through...drastic simply won't." Devin says "Listen, there must be a government elected by THE people of micromuse" Deathlok is willing to retire his position as guide, it's not worth it anymore. This place is gettin way too tight. Seamus says "Then we should plan out a long course of slight changes." Deejay says "Future Town meetings will focus on one particular topic. As this is our first, we are trying to focus on many." Deejay says "With the democracy issue, we've decided (in general) that priorities need to be given to the people." Deejay says "Pls save comments for future meetings." The next topic is: Judicial System. Deejay says "If you have a comment on our existing judicial system, type 'raise hand'." Deejay says "For this issue, one person will speak at a time." Deejay says "Frnkzk?" Frnkzk says "OK. First, I gotta say, the existing judicial system, if you can call it that, well, blows." Frnkzk says "The judicial system as I see it, is a director makes a decision and then carries it out. Yes, folks, I'm talking about Dagger's being @nuked." Frnkzk says "I think, even though it will be time consuming and most likely a pain in the ass, we need to have formal court proceedings with a predetermined way of working." Frnkzk says "Essentially, there needs to be some board of judges. How it is established, well, I dunno. Wide elections, higher-up appointment, who knows." HorseRider says "Here is what I think" HorseRider says "I think We do not even have a judicial system....." HorseRider says "I think our so called judicial stayem" HorseRider says "Is a pileof crappy @nukeing and power/credit abuse" Shaman says "I emailed inner about 2 months ago with the idea of judgeless courts" Tuppence says "I think this is crazy...a judicial system???" Shaman says "And they mailed me back that there was a court, and that it'd only been used once and someone pleaded guilty" Tuppence shrugs Shaman says "If there's a court, why isn't it public, or used?" Shaman says "Because they don't want to go throught with ALL THAT TROUBLE...(sarcasm)" Traveler says "I agree with HorseRider, as long as I have known about MicroMuse, the courthouse has been closed." Cabato says "I think courts would be appropriate, perhaps, if someone had broken one of the rules in the little rulebook they email you when you start or something like that." Zephyr says "ppl never asked for a trial, shaman." Deejay says "What are the existing problems with our "court system?" 'News charter.vii' if you're disagreeing with the thought that it exists. :)" NetRunner says "we DO need to make changes to the way things are being done, tho." Zephyr agrees. Los agrees too... Faceless says "but how?" NetRunner says "we need the equivalent of a Habeus Corpus...a guarantee that one will not be punished without a chance to speak in his defense..." NetRunner says "directors don' do this." Seamus says "I thought that that was one of the main ideas in the charter." Mint hugs NetRunner! NetRunner smiles. :) Deejay says "moulton is about the only one who knows the specifics of it. I've tried to persuade him to create a code of laws for our judicial system, or even an outline for the system." Faceless says "Moulton, so it looks in the admin building, is the only director interested." Seamus says "There aren't really that many bad things you can do on a muse, are there?" NetRunner says "I ask, d asks, ALL guides ask.." Faceless says "Moulton's a good guy.. all the direvctors are nice people.. but they all have their problems. some more than others. :)" NetRunner says "I won't point fingers, but you know as well as i do that SOME of the directors don't 'bother' to talk with an offender..." Cabato says "Harassment, moving objects around, insulting language, etc....?" Deejay nods. Devious says "Look...a court system is WHAT???? Jury by peer..ok..its been done on local BBS'es sevaral times here...it is possible to let the people choose...its the basis of our way of life. Its called the democratic process people..and from what I have seen, Micro is beginning to look like the communist party won the cold war, and the 21st century...well....SUCKS" Deejay says "Some have exhausted their desire to help the muse anymore.." NetRunner nods. Devious says "we come here for what reason? To escape the rigors of day to day rl ...what happens? We all log in here..BECAUSE it is the only MUSE listed on some of our local systems, and then world over to Time..and WHY???? Because Micro is too tight on TRIVIAL things" NetRunner says "Laws will be easy enought o make, but we need to draw up a process of dealing with offenders, including what officials can and cannot do..." Seamus says "As I see it - one of the main issues here is the inner council" Dagger says "A few things... 1> Might I add that the last thing Zephyr whisperes to me in our little conversation it 'Dagger, WE run micro. we can do what we want. we felt it was nessecary so we did it'.. that's his response to why I wasn't warned." Hacker-VII says "Laws are pretty useless on the MUSE. THe only real things you can do are make rude @ann's:)" Seamus says "I suppose the important part is to decide on the laws." Dagger says "Another, I think guides shoulde have to be on a certain amount.. the ones that aren't here, cannot help.." Seamus says "And another part is 'who's going to decide on the laws?'" Deejay says "Let's get something straight. There are about 40 people here, each one raising his or her hand. If I don't add you to the slock, do not take it personally, ok? I am not going to take this." Dagger says "We, as the people, need to have a little freedom here.. I'm really into this, I'm taking this very seriously.." Seamus says "All of our arguments so far have all been leading to one thing - the citizens need to have more say in everything." Deejay agrees. Zero says "I think that the inner council should" Dagger says "Yes, exactly.. whisper to me if you have an idea you want to talk about.. this needto happen.. and join +com +people for free discussion.." Seamus says "Okay, our topics so far have been: Announcing, Democracy, and the Judicial System." Seamus says "Topic 2: Democracy - we all pretty much decided to let the people have more power" NetRunner says "who will make the laws? like it or not, but it's gonna be the owners of the machine, and the founders of the muse." NetRunner says "who will implement the laws? well....if you guys play your cards right, it could be people of your choice..." Seamus says "If we decided on topic 2 to let people have more power, I assume that we want the people to figure out what the laws should be." NetRunner says "but you'll have to negotiate for it with the directors..." Zephyr says "ok. look. MicroMUSE's goal was to provide an educational look at TinyMUSEs. We have completely straid away from that idea. You must understand, using micromuse isn't a right, it's a priveldge. if you don't like our rules and our topic, leave. dagger, TinySex wasn't even close to anything MicroMUSE is about, so we nuked you." Cabato says "Why not use the representatives elected in topic 2 to be the judges?" Seamus says "Thanks Cabato, you're listening at least." Los says "I think what we have decided is that citizens need/want input into the government of Micro" Los says "That being the case, the thing we should be addressing is what kind of input we want, and then how to get it..." Los says "Everyone seems to be talking about inner council as if they are the group that" Los says "holds power on Micro. This isn't the case." Los says "Inner is actually more of a regulating group that approves decisions made by directors, and offers its input." Los says "The more ppl on inner, the less effective it gets at making decisions." Los says "Inner is currently looking at ways of restructuring itself so that there are actual decision makers on the muse, rather than ppl that just give tacit approval" Los says "That being the case, how do you want to procede with a) giving Micro an *effective* government that b) represents your interests" Los suggests that dj open the floor The floor is thrown open. HorseRider says "I really agree with los" Los says "I've made a suggestion to inner on how to start. Would anyone like to hear it?" Los says "It's not that inner won't listen! It's mainly that inner doesn't actually DO anything very often" lord_jagged thinks inner should be outer ... Los says "Most of the ppl on inner are very busy, and don't devote a lot of time to the muse. This isn't good, and the ppl on inner realize it" Los says "I've suggested the following..." Los says "These ppl should be chosen on the basis of how well they can do the job, and should be accountable for the job they do" Los says "If someone is doing a bad job, they should be replaced. That way, there's someone responsible for each area that is doing their job, unlike in the current situation" Los says "Where the ppl who originally did the job got busy with other things and let their duties lag..." Deathlok says "ok, this meeting had a good purpose." UncleJohn says "How would we chose these ppl?" Los says "That's where citizens input could come in" Deejay "Restructuring Inner is very important. I'm glad we've had the time to develop ways to do this, and to change the judicial system. Adding specialization to inner may help. End of Worthwhile Meeting.